Friday, November 7, 2008

26 new messages in 4 topics - digest

rec.photo.digital
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital?hl=en

rec.photo.digital@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* P & S cameras - 15 messages, 10 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/070ba95970b289dc?hl=en
* Digital Railroad disappears overnight - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/e78f19b1651d2d0b?hl=en
* Why do DSLR's still use mirrors? - 8 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/a53e34f2dbe14272?hl=en
* Homosexuals take to the street as California voters approve gay-marriage ban.
- 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/1a34d0798449c87f?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: P & S cameras
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/070ba95970b289dc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:00 am
From: DaveD


On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:51:00 -0800, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>In article <6u29h4l4juomtijv1encacl1rpreiqg967@4ax.com>, Carlisle
>Browne <cbrowne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >I've seen this sort of behavior when people desperately try to defend a
>> >bad purchasing decision that they've made
>>
>> Yes, like those that are desperately trying to defend their $10,000 DSLR +
>> overpriced lens purchases.
>
>the most expensive dslr (not counting medium format which is expensive
>no matter what you get) is $8000 -- the canon eos-1ds. the most
>popular dslrs are $500-$1000.
>
>> Then someone comes along and proves them all wrong.
>> All that money and supposedly-superior thinking, all gone to waste.
>
>yep, that's what i just did.

You left out the cost of all those lenses that would be needed to have the
equivalent focal-length reach of an inexpensive (<$500) super-zoom P&S camera,
not to mention that the aperture available at those longer focal-lengths that
can *never* be attained by the DLSR fan-troll.

Yep, you missed the "prove" point.

Try again.

Read this again, this might enlighten your ignorance:

1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2861257547_9a7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_High-Speed_Shutter_%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/chdk/images//4/46/Focalplane_shutter_distortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their piss-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

== 2 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:06 am
From:

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:LU%Qk.4032$hc1.2769@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> michaelk@fromCardiff.com wrote:
>
>> Any opinions anyone? I mean rational opinions, not insults etc. And no
>> comments on the merits of P/S vs SLR!
>
> I've seen this sort of behavior when people desperately try to defend a
> bad purchasing decision that they've made, against all facts and logic.
> They don't want to believe that they've been "taken" so they launch into
> these tirades of incorrect information that they really do know to be
> false. They may be trying to draw others into making the same mistakes, as
> a way of validating their decisions. You see this more in the automotive
> newsgroups and forums, or the Apple newsgroups and forums; there's
> apparently only one individual in rec.photo.digital with this problem,
> which is a pretty good thing!
>
> The constantly changing e-mail addresses are often used to create
> sock-puppets, though in this case he doesn't deny that he's doing this, so
> it's probably being done to get around everyone's kill-files. Above all
> these people seek attention. It doesn't matter that they're made to look
> foolish--simply getting a response is all they desire.
>
> You're right of course that each type of camera has its uses. I have one
> D-SLR, and we have four P&S cameras in the house. The core problem with
> our troll seems to be a keen lack of understanding of the pros and cons of
> each type of camera.
>
> It's not clear if he really owns anything at all, but if his claims of
> teleconverters is true, he is apparently trying to convert a P&S to the
> functionality, at least in zoom range, of a D-SLR with these kludges. When
> the cheapest D-SLR was $1500, this sort of kludge at least made a bit of
> sense for the person with little money that needed extreme wide-angle or
> long range telephoto, even though all the experts agree that using these
> devices results in sub-standard shots, not to mention the other issues
> such as shutter and auto-focus lag, and poor low light capability.

The weird thing is that posting that enourmous list of plus points for P&S
does'nt, in my opinion endear anyone towards P&S.

I'm wondering wether P&S cameras are going to become a lot less popular
after Xmas. I notice how SLRs are getting cheaper all the time and mobile
phones with built in cameras are getting better all the time. There is a
growing squeeze on the P&S market at the moment and I think sales of these
cameras may have peaked in the last year or so.


== 3 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:11 am
From: Charlie Gordon


On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:06:34 -0000, <michaelk@fromCardiff.com> wrote:

>The weird thing is that posting that enourmous list of plus points for P&S
>does'nt, in my opinion endear anyone towards P&S.

It doesn't matter one bit what you think. Those that can think for themselves,
and realize that they can't disprove anything on this list of P&S superiority is
what really matters.

1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2861257547_9a7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_High-Speed_Shutter_%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/chdk/images//4/46/Focalplane_shutter_distortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their piss-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

== 4 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:18 am
From: Alan Browne


michaelk@fromCardiff.com wrote:
> I own a P&S and an SLR, each has its uses. Recently I could'nt help but see
> all these threads that revolve around the question of which type of camera
> is "better". Personally I do not see that this is a question that has any
> sense as the two types of camera are designed for different uses. Anyway,
> has anyone any idea why the pro P&S posters tend to be so bizarre and quite
> frankly not quite right in the head, as witnessed by their somewhat
> hysterical postings. I am amazed at the emotion, derision, contempt and
> even hatred they are able to put in their postings. Its creepy and
> fascinating at the same time.
> Any opinions anyone? I mean rational opinions, not insults etc. And no
> comments on the merits of P/S vs SLR!

There is nothing wrong with a P&S if it suits the purpose. However a
DSLR suits a much broader set of purposes and achieves much higher
quality images in the hands of the average user than a P&S will do in
the same hands. The system benefits of DSLR are obvious. It costs
more. So pick what meets your needs and show your stuff. (Something
the P&S troll neglects to do).

So people have to choose what fits _their_ needs based on the capability
and limitations of each system.

This is a general digital NG and should not be a playground for tussles
over what is better. It should be a place for discussion about the
merits of a camera or system to achieve a goal. Problem solving. When
things come out with 25 point lists to declare that P&S is
overwhelmingly better than DSLR's in all respects you have to accept it
as humour or trolling.

What is most disheartening is that after a few days of this stupidity,
people who should know better keep replying to the P&S-troll which was
changing its name every day and is now changing its name with almost
every post. I'd call it coo-coo but that would be an insult to all the
good coo-coo's of the world.

I just wish people would stop feeding it.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.

== 5 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:21 am
From: nospam


In article <kl39h4plb3ch1oesbeareoc80nc17fkjr3@4ax.com>, DaveD
<contact@ddress.com> wrote:

> >> Then someone comes along and proves them all wrong.
> >> All that money and supposedly-superior thinking, all gone to waste.
> >
> >yep, that's what i just did.
>
> You left out the cost of all those lenses that would be needed to have the
> equivalent focal-length reach of an inexpensive (<$500) super-zoom P&S camera,
> not to mention that the aperture available at those longer focal-lengths that
> can *never* be attained by the DLSR fan-troll.

kit lenses have comparable or wider range than many p&s (which often
don't go as wide without extra lenses).

> Yep, you missed the "prove" point.
>
> Try again.
>
> Read this again, this might enlighten your ignorance:

it's mostly bogus.

> 1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
> existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.)

dslrs can go from 4.5mm to 5200mm before any converters are added into
the mix, and neither system is seamless.

> 2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
> DSLR glass in existence.

but the smaller sensor is inherently noisier so it's moot.

> 3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
> sensor cameras

absolutely false. all things being equal, a larger sensor will have a
larger dynamic range and lower noise than a smaller sensor. this is
basic physics.

> 4. P&S cameras are cost efficient.

they can be, it all depends on the task.

> 5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient.

yes, they are.

> 6. P&S cameras are silent.

some dslrs have a silent mode. it's also not generally an issue.

> 7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them,

big deal, it just duplicates functionality that's often included in a
dslr.

> 8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second.

very few people use 1/8000th, nevermind faster.

> 9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including
> shutter-speeds
> of 1/40,000th of a second.

some dslrs can sync at any shutter speed, notably the nikon d50 and d70.

> 10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
> limitations.

it's *extremely* rare that it's an issue.

> 11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
> environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
> vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're
> not
> worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
> shots),

that's why they make super-zooms, and on a p&s, one would have to add
or remove accessory lenses.

> 12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
> required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
> destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash.

for the same image quality, depth of field is the same regardless of
sensor size.

> 13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo
> audio
> recordings,

so do dslrs.

> 14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
> image.

some dslrs do. it's not really a big deal since images are generally
cropped afterwards anyway. film cameras never had 100% coverage, nor
was it important since the film gate or slide mount cropped a little.

> 15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light

not as well as a dslr's phase detect autofocus system.

> 16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
> silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it
> away

that's rarely an issue and not everyone shoots wildlife anyway.

> 17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
> degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
> inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
> EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately.

false.

> 18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
> popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
> slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is
> recorded.

but they have longer focus acquisition times.

> 19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately
> relay
> the camera's shutter-speed in real-time.

so what? an experienced photographer knows what the results will look
like.

> 20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
> background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of
> its

bokeh depends on the lens, not the camera type.

> 21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
> just as much resolution as any DSLR camera.

totally false.

> Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
> and ISO64 film all their lives.
> They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
> go above ISO400 without noise.

and technology has advanced since then. why restrict oneself to iso
400 when iso 3200 is very, very good?

> 22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
> determine the quality of your photography.

nobody said it did. and just as an expensive camera doesn't result in
a better picture (although it does open up opportunities), a cheaper
camera isn't necessarily better either.

> 24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
> the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
> ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
> photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
> and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag,
> hoping
> that you'll lug it around again some day.

that is true, but in many situations, the extra weight isn't an issue.

> 25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent.

so is a large dog.

== 6 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:21 am
From: TaylorSchmidt


On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:18:11 -0500, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@Freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

>There is nothing wrong with a P&S if it suits the purpose. However a
>DSLR suits a much broader set of purposes

You apparently have a very limited view of the needs of the professional
photographer. Let me enlighten you:

1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2861257547_9a7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_High-Speed_Shutter_%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/chdk/images//4/46/Focalplane_shutter_distortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their piss-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

== 7 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:24 am
From: ray


On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:01:25 +0000, michaelk wrote:

> I own a P&S and an SLR, each has its uses. Recently I could'nt help but
> see all these threads that revolve around the question of which type of
> camera is "better". Personally I do not see that this is a question
> that has any sense as the two types of camera are designed for different
> uses. Anyway, has anyone any idea why the pro P&S posters tend to be so
> bizarre and quite frankly not quite right in the head, as witnessed by
> their somewhat hysterical postings. I am amazed at the emotion,
> derision, contempt and even hatred they are able to put in their
> postings. Its creepy and fascinating at the same time.
> Any opinions anyone? I mean rational opinions, not insults etc. And no
> comments on the merits of P/S vs SLR!

It's a bit like the "film vs digital" wars. Quite obviously each has it's
place. I'm willing to grant that ultimately a DSLR may actually take
'better' pictures than a P&S. But, quite frankly, I don't want to pack
thirty pounds of camera gear when I'm out hiking, bicycling or showshoeing.

== 8 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:29 am
From: nospam


In article <t759h49v6vcd0ved5sbhuegk034cvk7u9u@4ax.com>, TaylorSchmidt
<tshcmidt@ispamblocker.org> wrote:

> >There is nothing wrong with a P&S if it suits the purpose. However a
> >DSLR suits a much broader set of purposes
>
> You apparently have a very limited view of the needs of the professional
> photographer.

look at all those p&s cameras at the sidelines of ball games and the
olympics. look at all those p&s cameras used for weddings. look at
all those p&s cameras used for portrait and fashion photography.

oh wait. they're all dslrs.

== 9 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:38 am
From: SMS


ray wrote:

> It's a bit like the "film vs digital" wars. Quite obviously each has it's
> place. I'm willing to grant that ultimately a DSLR may actually take
> 'better' pictures than a P&S. But, quite frankly, I don't want to pack
> thirty pounds of camera gear when I'm out hiking, bicycling or showshoeing.

That's quite an exaggeration. The Canon XSi weighs 17 ounces. The Canon
EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens weighs 21 ounces (and there are a lot
lighter lenses as well). These aren't the lightest D-SLRs and lenses
either. You can easily keep it under 3 pounds, an order of magnitude
less than 30 pounds. The real issue that is that it's a lot bulkier.

The Canon G10 weighs 14 ounces. Start adding lens adapters for telephoto
and wide angle, and extension tubes, and you aren't saving much in terms
of weight and volume and you're adding a lot of hassle and getting very
inferior results.

I carry a P&S while bicycling or nordic skiing, but often I'll take the
D-SLR hiking. There's a lot of shots you can't get with a P&S. I was
down at Natural Bridges State Park in Santa Cruz to see the Monarch
butterflies, and a P&S would have been just a joke to try to get any
decent shots using multiple tele-converters. In fact I really wanted one
of those Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS USM lenses, but it's not in the budget.

P&S cameras are great for "snapshots."

== 10 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:43 am
From: SMS


michaelk@fromCardiff.com wrote:

> I'm wondering wether P&S cameras are going to become a lot less popular
> after Xmas. I notice how SLRs are getting cheaper all the time and mobile
> phones with built in cameras are getting better all the time. There is a
> growing squeeze on the P&S market at the moment and I think sales of these
> cameras may have peaked in the last year or so.

It's true that with the free-fall in D-SLR prices, D-SLR sales volumes
are growing at a much faster rate than P&S sales. P&S cameras have
almost reached market saturation, and sales are more for replacements
than first time buyers.

== 11 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:51 am
From: TheEducator


On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:21:15 -0800, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>In article <kl39h4plb3ch1oesbeareoc80nc17fkjr3@4ax.com>, DaveD
><contact@ddress.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Then someone comes along and proves them all wrong.
>> >> All that money and supposedly-superior thinking, all gone to waste.
>> >
>> >yep, that's what i just did.
>>
>> You left out the cost of all those lenses that would be needed to have the
>> equivalent focal-length reach of an inexpensive (<$500) super-zoom P&S camera,
>> not to mention that the aperture available at those longer focal-lengths that
>> can *never* be attained by the DLSR fan-troll.
>
>kit lenses have comparable or wider range than many p&s (which often
>don't go as wide without extra lenses).
>
>> Yep, you missed the "prove" point.
>>
>> Try again.
>>
>> Read this again, this might enlighten your ignorance:
>
>it's mostly bogus.
>
>> 1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
>> existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.)
>
>dslrs can go from 4.5mm to 5200mm before any converters are added into
>the mix, and neither system is seamless.
>

You left off the aperture available, do show your experience with real-world
needs. Thanks.

>> 2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
>> DSLR glass in existence.
>
>but the smaller sensor is inherently noisier so it's moot.
>
>> 3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
>> sensor cameras
>
>absolutely false. all things being equal, a larger sensor will have a
>larger dynamic range and lower noise than a smaller sensor. this is
>basic physics.

Yes, just stick you fingers in your ears and hum a tune to block out all those
nasty effects of reality. That'll help you in your career.


>
>> 4. P&S cameras are cost efficient.
>
>they can be, it all depends on the task.
>
>> 5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient.
>
>yes, they are.
>
>> 6. P&S cameras are silent.
>
>some dslrs have a silent mode. it's also not generally an issue.

Oh? You mean the "silent" mode where you can't see a thing through the
viewfinder while that annoying and slow mirror is locked out of the way? Yes,
that's a wonderful feature. :-) But you can't get around the "silence" of that
archaic focal-plane shutter. Are you deaf?


>
>> 7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them,
>
>big deal, it just duplicates functionality that's often included in a
>dslr.
>

LOL! Now I know for a fact that you are nothing but a low-life troll. If you
only knew....

>> 8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second.
>
>very few people use 1/8000th, nevermind faster.

Yes, those that don't know how to do photography that nobody else has ever done
before. That be someone like you. It must be boring duplicating what everyone
else has done before, isn't it. But then, that's how much creativity that you
have and profess by your comment.

>
>> 9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including
>> shutter-speeds
>> of 1/40,000th of a second.
>
>some dslrs can sync at any shutter speed, notably the nikon d50 and d70.

Sure they can. But as proven in the comments that you snipped, those "faster"
shutter speeds are really no faster than the x-sync speed of those focal-plane
shutters. You do know how focal-plane shutters work, don't you?

>
>> 10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
>> limitations.
>
>it's *extremely* rare that it's an issue.

Oh, of course, with your limited perception and not realizing that bird's wings
are not unnaturally curved that way, how could you know? These distorted views
that your focal-plane shutter have given you are all that you know about
reality. Your ignorance is forgiven.

>
>> 11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
>> environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
>> vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're
>> not
>> worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
>> shots),
>
>that's why they make super-zooms, and on a p&s, one would have to add
>or remove accessory lenses.

Oh? You mean like you have to do with EVERY focal-length change on a DSLR? My,
what a drawback. Claiming this is a drawback only proves that owning a DSLR is
the worst drawback of all.


>
>> 12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
>> required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
>> destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash.
>
>for the same image quality, depth of field is the same regardless of
>sensor size.
>

You must be joking. Have you NO clue about optics and reality? Don't bother to
answer. Your comment here is proof enough.


>> 13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo
>> audio
>> recordings,
>
>so do dslrs.

Really? You mean those newer ones that are attempting to duplicate all the
advanced features of P&S cameras that P&S camera owners have enjoyed having at
their fingertips for the last decade? It's about time you DSLR idiots were able
to enjoy the vast benefits of P&S camera owners.

Oh, but do clarify one thing. Just which DSLR is it that has CD quality stereo
audio recordings? I seem to have missed that in any mfg's. specs.


>
>> 14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
>> image.
>
>some dslrs do. it's not really a big deal since images are generally
>cropped afterwards anyway. film cameras never had 100% coverage, nor
>was it important since the film gate or slide mount cropped a little.
>

Now I know that you don't know what you are talking about. Not ONE dslr has 100%
viewfinder representation in their OVF viewfinder. Please provide a link to such
a fact. :-)


>> 15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light
>
>not as well as a dslr's phase detect autofocus system.

Excuse me? Just how on earth is a phase detection AF system going to auto-focus
on something that it can't detect? My my my, you DSLR trolls will invent
anything, won't you.

:-)


>
>> 16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
>> silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it
>> away
>
>that's rarely an issue and not everyone shoots wildlife anyway.

Oh, but I heard that the only reason to obtain a DSLR is its superiority to
shoot wildlife. Are you now claiming all those fools are in error? They're going
to verbally attack you now, you know this, don't you.

LOL


>
>> 17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
>> degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
>> inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
>> EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately.
>
>false.

Apparently you've never taken ONE bit of photography that scientists require. Do
continue to express your ignorance.


>
>> 18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
>> popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
>> slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is
>> recorded.
>
>but they have longer focus acquisition times.

Ah, then you've failed to comprehend how anyone that depends on auto-focus from
ANY camera will lose more award-winning shots in their lifetime than a real pro
who would never depend on some idiot camera manufacturer programmer to decide
what to focus on for them.

You reveal so much about your sub-amateur status.

>
>> 19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately
>> relay
>> the camera's shutter-speed in real-time.
>
>so what? an experienced photographer knows what the results will look
>like.

Great. Let me know what a fly's wing-beat will look like in that hand-held
in-flight shot will look like in your final photo.

What's that you say? You can't even focus on a fly in flight, hand-held, with a
DSLR? And that's because of the small apertures that you have to depend on for
enough DOF with image destroying flash? Okay. I understand. You've never used
the superior P&S cameras for this purpose. Don't feel bad.


>
>> 20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
>> background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of
>> its
>
>bokeh depends on the lens, not the camera type.
>

No shit Sherlock. Isn't that exactly what was stated? Read fully before
replying.


>> 21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
>> just as much resolution as any DSLR camera.
>
>totally false.

Poor pitiful you. You'll never understand what REAL pros use daily, and how they
accomplish those award winning photos.

>
>> Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
>> and ISO64 film all their lives.
>> They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
>> go above ISO400 without noise.
>
>and technology has advanced since then. why restrict oneself to iso
>400 when iso 3200 is very, very good?

I've never said that high ISOs were helpful. I only said they weren't needed in
the hands of a real pro using a P&S camera. Can't you follow?

>
>> 22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
>> determine the quality of your photography.
>
>nobody said it did. and just as an expensive camera doesn't result in
>a better picture (although it does open up opportunities), a cheaper
>camera isn't necessarily better either.
>

Ah, he's finally starting to realize what "talent" means, even if it is outside
the realm of his reality.


>> 24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
>> the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
>> ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
>> photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
>> and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag,
>> hoping
>> that you'll lug it around again some day.
>
>that is true, but in many situations, the extra weight isn't an issue.
>
>> 25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent.
>
>so is a large dog.

It was a minor attribute of owning a camera, but an important one--to anyone
that travels. Which, apparently, you've never done in your pathetic
basement-living life.

== 12 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:55 am
From:

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message> I carry a P&S while
bicycling or nordic skiing, but often I'll take the
> D-SLR hiking. There's a lot of shots you can't get with a P&S. I was down
> at Natural Bridges State Park in Santa Cruz to see the Monarch
> butterflies, and a P&S would have been just a joke to try to get any
> decent shots using multiple tele-converters. In fact I really wanted one
> of those Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS USM lenses, but it's not in the budget.
>
> P&S cameras are great for "snapshots."

I also do a lot of outdoor activity. I'm used to lugging enourmous rucksacks
so carrying an SLR with a number of lens is not so bad for me. I rarely use
my G9. However, if I am on a seriously strenous trip I will take the D80
with say a 12-24mm or 80-400mm lens plus the G9 and a tripod. On these
occasions the G9 has turned out some amazing macro shots of flowers and
plants. Mainly though, I carry it in case I trash the SLR.


== 13 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 12:03 pm
From:

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:QW0Rk.3944$pr6.3330@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
> michaelk@fromCardiff.com wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering wether P&S cameras are going to become a lot less popular
>> after Xmas. I notice how SLRs are getting cheaper all the time and
>> mobile phones with built in cameras are getting better all the time.
>> There is a growing squeeze on the P&S market at the moment and I think
>> sales of these cameras may have peaked in the last year or so.
>
> It's true that with the free-fall in D-SLR prices, D-SLR sales volumes are
> growing at a much faster rate than P&S sales. P&S cameras have almost
> reached market saturation, and sales are more for replacements than first
> time buyers.

Do you see the camera phone making a dent in the P&S market? I briefly
caught sight of an ad for an 8MP camera phone the other day! Hang on a
minute, I'll just get my list of 25 reasons why the camera phone is best :-)


== 14 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 12:03 pm
From: "Roy G"

<michaelk@fromCardiff.com> wrote in message
news:tOWdnR3_5Pz7H4nUnZ2dnUVZ8uKdnZ2d@bt.com...
>I own a P&S and an SLR, each has its uses. Recently I could'nt help but
>see all these threads that revolve around the question of which type of
>camera is "better". Personally I do not see that this is a question that
>has any sense as the two types of camera are designed for different uses.
>Anyway, has anyone any idea why the pro P&S posters tend to be so bizarre
>and quite frankly not quite right in the head, as witnessed by their
>somewhat hysterical postings. I am amazed at the emotion, derision,
>contempt and even hatred they are able to put in their postings. Its
>creepy and fascinating at the same time.
> Any opinions anyone? I mean rational opinions, not insults etc. And no
> comments on the merits of P/S vs SLR!

I won't even attemp to get into the P & S versus DSLR discussion.

It isn't really a discussion at all because there is only 1 person posting
the same over long list of what he considers proofs of the superiority of P
& S Cameras for every possible function. He claims to be a professional
photographer but will never post any images, or specify which equipment he
uses.

I think that in order to get a reasonable explanation of why he is waging
this one man war, you would need to visit
rec. physchiatric.digital.

I just hope he never links up with the MI5 Troll.

Roy G


== 15 of 15 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 12:05 pm
From: nospam


In article <ee59h4ta08sdi3smiiuhomm1ludb351cju@4ax.com>, TheEducator
<givemeabreak@youmustbejoking.org> wrote:

> >> 9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including
> >> shutter-speeds
> >> of 1/40,000th of a second.
> >
> >some dslrs can sync at any shutter speed, notably the nikon d50 and d70.
>
> Sure they can. But as proven in the comments that you snipped, those "faster"
> shutter speeds are really no faster than the x-sync speed of those focal-plane
> shutters. You do know how focal-plane shutters work, don't you?

they absolutely are faster than the x-sync speed.

> >> 12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep
> >> DOF
> >> required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
> >> destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash.
> >
> >for the same image quality, depth of field is the same regardless of
> >sensor size.
>
> You must be joking. Have you NO clue about optics and reality? Don't bother to
> answer. Your comment here is proof enough.

i'm not joking at all. smaller sensors are inherently noisier and
require a larger aperture for the same image quality. there's no free
lunch.

> Now I know that you don't know what you are talking about. Not ONE dslr has
> 100%
> viewfinder representation in their OVF viewfinder. Please provide a link to
> such
> a fact. :-)

nikon d3:
<http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/page2.asp>

> >> 15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light
> >
> >not as well as a dslr's phase detect autofocus system.
>
> Excuse me? Just how on earth is a phase detection AF system going to
> auto-focus
> on something that it can't detect? My my my, you DSLR trolls will invent
> anything, won't you.

it's more sensitive at lower light levels.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Digital Railroad disappears overnight
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/e78f19b1651d2d0b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:02 am
From: Alan Browne


jj@unspameljefe.net wrote:

> out shooting. And I didn't need a hard drive and a computer screen to
> see what I'd shot. Or 1TB back-up drives to store 13 MB RAW files.

On the other hand ... when I import the files onto my computer in raw I
convert to DNG on the fly (saving 10-15% of storage) and add a subject
name (and/or a date string) to the file names automatically.

This makes locating a particular photo on my 1 TB drive a snap. Much
easier than making index files for film in shoe boxes... couple that to
the Finder which decodes raw (and DNG) on the fly while you look at a
folder and any image can be found very quickly.

So while I may spend too much time on the computer, it has nothing to do
with image management.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do DSLR's still use mirrors?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/a53e34f2dbe14272?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:06 am
From: Alan Browne


SMS wrote:
> Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
>
>> Test your shutter lag in your camera at:
>> http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp
>
>
> Cool site.
>
> With prefocus, my SD800 IS is about 0.15 seconds. Without pre-focus it's
> 0.4 seconds.
>
> With prefocus, my D-SLR is 0.09 seconds. Without prefocus it's 0.22
> seconds.
>
> If I changed lenses the D-SLR would probably be faster, it didn't like
> focusing on the computer screen with the 10-22 EF-s
>
> Professional testing of the same cameras shows the D-SLR doing full
> auto-focus at 0.15 seconds, and 0.077 seconds for pre-focus, and shows
> the SD800 IS at 0.4 seconds for full auto-focus.
>
> So it's true that by doing pre-focus on a P&S, you can get about the
> same performance as a D-SLR in full auto-focus, but of course you can't
> even come close to a D-SLR that's pre-focused, the P&S is twice as slow.

Did you notice if the clock is hesitating going through 0 on your
machine? That shortens the measurement by over 0.05s on mine.

If so then re-do those off of the bottom of the clock (1 second mark).
The timer above hesitates going through 0 (my Mac, 2 browsers; David
Taylor too on PC with another browser).

AF is going to suffer as it sees the scan flicker invisible to us.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:07 am
From: Alan Browne


SMS wrote:

> LOL, he may not know anything about photographic equipment, but he sure
> is good at forging identities really quickly!

Stop feeding it.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:07 am
From: SMS


Alan Browne wrote:

> If you have a stopwatch timer on your computer you could run that and
> then depress the shutter as it goes through each second. Do 5 in a row
> (say every 2 or 3 seconds) and then take the stats from the images...

The results I got were very close to the published tests by
professionals, so that program does work pretty well.

It was kind of cool to see how long the shutter stayed open to
compensate for the low light, you can see the arrow as if it was in
time-lapse.

In any case, it only verified what everyone already knew--the auto-focus
on D-SLRs is much much faster.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:18 am
From: Alxe B. Farnsworth


On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:07:55 -0500, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@Freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

>SMS wrote:
>
>> LOL, he may not know anything about photographic equipment, but he sure
>> is good at forging identities really quickly!
>
>Stop feeding it.

He can't help it. Even though he claims he's filtered out on 4ax domains, I
already proved to him how stupid that was, so I reinstated that domain, which
can only means he sees everything again. He knows he's wrong and wants me to
keep posting the following info. Don't your realize when you've been trolled by
a resident-troll? I do. But I'm smart enough to use it to my advantage.
(resident trolls, like yourself, are never too bright)

1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2861257547_9a7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_High-Speed_Shutter_%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/chdk/images//4/46/Focalplane_shutter_distortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their piss-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:45 am
From: Alan Browne


SMS wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> If you have a stopwatch timer on your computer you could run that and
>> then depress the shutter as it goes through each second. Do 5 in a
>> row (say every 2 or 3 seconds) and then take the stats from the images...
>
> The results I got were very close to the published tests by
> professionals, so that program does work pretty well.

That's what I was asking: do you see it hesitate at the top?
If not, fine.

But David T and I see it hesitate. The stats I get from the 0 and the
stats I get from the 1 mark differ by 50ms or so...

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:49 am
From: "Me Here"

"Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:umm8h45hi8gdrfndtg38f0e03bnf0dp9ec@4ax.com...
> "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net>
> wrote:
>>Why do DSLR's still use mirrors?
>
> Because without a mirror it would be a dSL without the R.
>
> jue

Yet Consumer Reports calls the Panasonic G1 a dSLR, gives them no credence..

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:51 am
From: "Me Here"

"ZamphorBiggins" <zbiggins@noaddress.gov> wrote in message
news:5ou8h4tl00nu7qfiei8sgnl6oip0th49ds@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:22:20 -0800 (PST), jdear64 <jdear64@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 7, 7:44 am, Harlan Adams <had...@addressdeleted.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:22:54 -0800, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >Thanks Roger, but I think this all went over the head of our favorite
>>> >troll.
>>>
>>> Many points outlined below completely disprove your usual resident-troll
>>> bullshit.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Wow, so many posters with exactly the same view point, spelling, and
>>writing
>>style as yourself.
>>
>>You must be one of the loneliest losers on usenet to have to resort to
>>so many
>>sock puppets. I pity your lack of life.
>
> And this discounts the truth of what has been posted, how? Oh, that's
> right. You
> think that you need 1 million people to say the same thing before it
> should be
> believed. Just like any mindless non-thinking follower.
>
Wow, not only the same style of writing et al, but the same IP address
too...

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 12:04 pm
From: Alfred Molon


In article <9hZQk.84156$E41.19036@text.news.virginmedia.com>, David J
Taylor says...
> Alfred Molon wrote:
> > In article <1sg8h4d0ni1c1saua8jt6cf6ljigiu07e0@4ax.com>, Steve says...
> >>
> >> You can see the effects of live view lag on high pixel count cameras
> >> easily, and it's much greater than the LCD refresh rate.
> >
> > It's not. I have two live view cameras (Olympus 8080 and Sony R1)
> > which have no noticeable delay in live view.
> >
> >> Just point
> >> the camera at something and then move sharply and you'll see the
> >> movement on the LCD image is delayed from when you actually moved the
> >> camera.
> >
> > Only a few cameras have a feature which simulates the shutter lag, but
> > you can turn that off.
>
> This isn't an emulation, Alfred, this is a delay between the sensing and
> the display of the image. I've seen this in may compact cameras, and it's
> most noticeable at low ambient light levels when the image from the sensor
> has to have an exposure of a significant fraction of a second. It seems
> that some compact cameras integrate the image either on the sensor or
> between sensor and display to produce an acceptable display in these
> low-light conditions. The lag is then very noticeable.

As I wrote, you can turn this emulation off, if you choose to do so.
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homosexuals take to the street as California voters approve gay-
marriage ban.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.digital/browse_thread/thread/1a34d0798449c87f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:32 am
From: "Rev. Richard Skull"


On Nov 7, 1:28 pm, zzpat <zzpatr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> TueDat wrote:
> > A good thing that we can't hear his voice and hear a purse drop out of his mouth
> > every time that he talks.
>
> I know straight men who talk like gays are supposed to sound and I know
> gay woman who can sing like Elvis.  My point is it doesn't matter what a
> person sounds like or how they look or what they're sexual orientation
> is.  It's like all the nut cases out there complaining that we have a
> black president. What does skin color have to do with anything?
>
> It's such a waste of time.
>
> --
> Impeach Bushhttp://zzpat.tripod.com/cvb/
>
> Impeach Search Engine:http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=012146513885108216046:rzesyut3kmm

Some people from certain areas of West Virginia have an accent thats
sounds like what most people think gays are supposed to sound like.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 11:28 am
From: "SODDI"

"HEMI-Powered" <none@none.sn> wrote>

> God's Law shall not be ignored by some
> nuts in Kalyfornia.

Your "god" never existed so who the fuck cares what some old beardie man
wrote down and pretended that was what some invisible sky daddy said.

You people are nothing but cave men.


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